religion

What it says on the tin.

The bible teaches that we go to heaven by grace through faith alone. The passages on being justified by works in James (by both context and what some of the words say EXACTLY in Greek) that it is talking about being justified before men, but not God. Logically it follows to me that if Christ died for sins, then faith Him saves instead of works. Now I realize with spiritual things it might be hard to be logical sometimes. This is why the bible over and over again says we are saved by grace and faith instead of works. Works are important for a believer because they are an outworking of the regeneration God gives us upon faith in Christ. They also earn extra rewards in heaven and bring some blessing in this life and prevent God's harsher discipline in this life. The idea that God disciplines believers for blatant and unrepentant sin in this life shows that being saved by grace alone is no license to sin and get away with it. In an earlier post I pointed out how biblically unmarried sex, sexual feelings, desiring a single woman or your own wife if you are married, are by no means sins. Make no mistake about it. Just because those things aren't sins doesn't mean we don't need grace to be saved. Romans says that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Ok so now you know that having sex with a girlfriend or boyfriend isn't a sin. Good..now that won't justify you on judgement day with all the other things we have all done that the bible CLEARLY says are sins. The only thing that justifies before God is faith in Christ for eternal life. To help trusting Christ is a major component of the kind of faith that saves.

posted to religion by Morty, Shadow of the Irredeemably Moist (17 comments)


Brett, Engineer of Musclebeasts,

Why does believing Jesus matter? Does it feed anyone? Does it put clothes on their back? Does it help someone get a job?

Allison, Matriarch of the Rich,

Good works ARE important, they just NEVER earn entrance into heaven, UNLESS one is PERFECTLY SINLESS. Do you know ANY human beings that are or were sinless? Jesus was, but that is it. His sinlessless qualified Him to be an acceptable sacrifice for all sin. In the Old Testament Law all sacrificial animals were required to have no imperfections or defects. This wasn't God making people follow arbitrary details. The perfection required to make the animals acceptable REPRESENTED Jesus' sinlessness. I STRONGLY believe the Old Testament Sabbath represents the concept of resting in Christ for salvation instead of striving for it by works. It partially symbolizes a good work rest cycle, but its ultimate meaning is salvation in Christ. In the Old Testament Law, people could be put to death for doing even the smallest of work tasks on the Sabbath. This represents that even thinking you can earn entrance to heaven a little bit qualifies you for hell.

Brett, Engineer of Musclebeasts,

Would you stop with the heaven bullshit. When you die, you die. The supernatural doesn't exist.

We have to be good for the sake of being good which is a lot more MORAL than being good because you are afraid of some make believe deity.

Allison, Matriarch of the Rich,

Being good for the sake of being good can speak to being allowed to enter heaven by grace alone, rather than being good to try to earn your way into heaven.

Brett, Travel Agent of the Hungry,

To get to heaven by good works one must be absolutely 100% perfect. Faith in Christ for eternal life allows the fact that He paid for all sins to be applied to our account and we are COUNTED as perfect before God. The bible compares Jesus to Noah's Ark. If you were in Ark, you were saved from judgement. If you are in Christ, you are safe from judgement. Noah's Ark symbolizes Christ.

Brett, Engineer of Musclebeasts,

Why not bath in the Ganges. There are Hindus that think that that river washes their sins away. It makes as much sense as believing in a dead person (Jesus) washes your sins away.

Brett, Travel Agent of the Hungry,

I don't believe bathing in the Ganges actually washes away sins, but interesting that the Hindus have the concept of needing to have sins washed away. That is not false, that is of God, that feeling or belief. Now transfer that concept to Christ and the cross and you have it.

Allison, Matriarch of the Rich,

The notion of washing one's sins away in the Ganges can be traced back to the origin of humanity and Genesis. Where did they get that concept from? It is ingrained in humanity and comes from God, that we need to wash our sins away. We can debate HOW it is done and get it to work before God, but it seems ingrained in every culture. Other religions and books don't always agree, but there is a common thread on some themes.

Brett, Travel Agent of the Hungry,

Christian ARE called to do good works, but good works do NOT determine whether or not one gets into heaven. We are to do good works because God often rewards us in this life, the Holy Spirit works in true believers to prompt them to do good, and believers ARE rewarded in a judgement of rewards for good works SEPARATE from a whether or not they go to heaven. In fact for believers, once they have faith, the judgement of whether or not they go to heaven is pre-settled in THIS LIFE. Faith that saves is defined as trusting Christ or having faith in Him FOR eternal life. It is not a mere belief that He existed or even a few correct doctrines about Him on a mere intellectual level.

Brett, Engineer of Musclebeasts,

Don't you see it is a house of cards built of several assumptions: The supernatural exists, there is a triple God (polytheism, but we pretend it is monotheism), there are souls. You are asking me to swallow a whole lot of unsubstantiated claims. These claims wouldn't hold up in court. Don't you ever think for yourself? Is your whole life dictated by a book of dubious origins. Why that book?Why not Gilgamesh or the Koran? Choosing the Bible is arbitrary. You are only a Christian because of the culture you are BORN in. Have you even considered other religions? Probably not. You just swallowed the Christian version of the world because everyone else was, just like a lemming. No individual thought. As your president would say, "Sad."

Morty, Shadow of the Irredeemably Moist,

I do thank God that He has established that the receiving of eternal life is by grace through faith alone.That way when churches become wicked and threaten hell for leaving them, you point to the bible and say "Thus saith the Lord, THIS says I am NOT headed for hell because of my faith...I will pray for YOU to REPENT instead". While God has established churches to aid in spiritual growth and mutual support, if current conditions make it hard to find a good church to attend, Christians can gather under other circumstances outside of the institutional churches. I do believe it is God's will for no one to attend a church that is happy with 501c3. With the current administration godly churches will wait in the wings to jettison their 501c3 status.

Morty, Shadow of the Irredeemably Moist,

Sometimes I feel some churches or ministries feel a need to make more things sins than what the bible says are sins in order to convince people of their need for God's grace. This is a bad tactic, and can backfire when people come back at these preachers with results of their own bible studies. Instead we can convince people that all have sinned by showing a lot of details on sin from the bible. For instance, since the correct interpretation of Matthew 5:27-28 is that it is a sin only to lust for a married or betrothed woman, a lot of people might say that leaves them off the hook, but then you may have coveted other things, actually stolen, had a foolish thought, harbored hate towards others, engaged in malicious gossip, not put God first in your life....and you may have coveted a married woman and not just a single woman. Paul says in Romans that if you want to be saved by works or the Law (which are often used interchangeably) then you must keep the WHOLE LAW perfectly. I realize that in our New Testament era now the ceremonial laws no longer apply, including animal sacrifices, but other parts still do apply. Paul also goes on to say that if you break any one point of the Law, then you are guilty as if you had broken it ALL. So to be saved we have two choices, either attempt to keep the whole Law perfectly which everyone has failed at, or have faith in Jesus for eternal life to cover our sins with His blood. The Lord said that on judgement day He will say to those who proclaimed what wonderful works they did for Him, and that is why they should get into heaven "Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity, I NEVER KNEW YOU. Into the fire prepared for the Devil and his angels." That is the end result of attempting to earn your way into heaven. The other way we can get into heaven is per John 3:16 or multitudes of verses that talk about faith in Christ. Well there are really two ways to get into heaven, but with the human condition the way it is, faith in Christ is the method that actually works.

Brett, Engineer of Musclebeasts,

You do realize that citing chapter and verse is only meaningful for people who believe that book is special. To me, it is a flawed history of a people. It is less accurate than the writings of Caesar. Why not read him and base your life on him. It makes about as much sense.

Morty, Shadow of the Irredeemably Moist,

Indeed I will respond to your point about the kind of faith that many churches teach indeed drives people farther away from God. This is not always true, there are many good churches, but it is often true. The kind of faith that brings one closer to God is described in the bible. When churches start mishandling passages or add their own doctrines to the bible, then they are indeed teaching a type of faith that drives people farther from God. Jesus said of the Pharisees and other like leaders "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for you neither go in yourselves, neither allow you them that are entering to go in." Make no mistake, the current state of the churches requires repentance as far as God is concerned.

Morty, Shadow of the Irredeemably Moist,

Faith doesn't mean less contact with God if you define faith as believing in something you have no or little evidence of. Biblically faith is defined as believing that God exist but also trusting in, adhering to, and relying upon. Acutally this definition is the LITERAL meaning of the Greek word for faith in the original New Testament. So by this definition faith causes more contact with God, not less. God's Spirit responds to our faith and acts upon us. As for what you claim the church wants, I don't really care. Some churches want good things more accurately according to the bible, some less so. When the churches and the bible contradict each other, it means the churches are WRONG and the bible is RIGHT. I have on some good authority that someone who has made recent prophesies and ALL of them have come to pass (not some flakey prophets on "Christian" TV) , but he says that the churches are under God's correction right now. That may mean quiet repentance in the churches. But if they are stubborn God is going to cause them to break up and the people to go elsewhere. The churches are under God's judgement this year. Either the easy way, by repentance, or the hard way, by breaking them up. The New Testament doesn't pull any punches with disobedient churches. The Apostles spent a lot of time rebuking them in the Epistles. Case in point are the letters to the 7 churches in Revelation. Later in his life the Apostle John was thrown out of a wayward church run by a heretical and wicked pastor (Diotrephes). It is good reason we are saved by faith, because then if some wicked church says "agree with us or we will throw you out of the church, and if you are thrown out, you will go to hell unless you start agreeing with us and come back"...then your reply should be "I am saved by the blood of Christ, have a nice day", shake the dust off your feet at that church, and pray for THEM to repent so that God doesn't have to be harsh on them. Many churches of various denominations need to repent. Many need to start teaching salvation by grace through faith. Many need to start teaching biblical doctrine again. Some need to repent of having rules that aren't in the bible. Most need to start more deeply studying sexual doctrine in the bible and start teaching it the way is. On that point, I read a more LITERAL definition of the Greek word for lust, it means to "set your heart upon". Basically the same as coveting. So if you "set your heart" upon another man's wife THEN you have committed adultery of the heart. If you merely acknowledge a pretty or a hot wife but have self control to NOT set your heart upon her, then you have NOT committed adultery of the heart. Of course wisdom says men should focus most of their desire on unattached women, it gives a better buffer zone for avoiding sin. Now with the woman caught in adultery, when Jesus told her to go and sin no more, I believe he was specifically talking about adultery, not ALL sin that would be impossible for her to stop in this life. I think He was saying that if she did it again He might let her be stoned to death as the Law of Moses commanded. In the Old Testament judges had the authority to show mercy and mitigate or dismiss punishment. John 8:11 is the verse about going and sinning no more, verse 12 reads 'When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." '

So I wonder if telling her to go and sin no more is a blessing as much as a warning, considering what verse 12 says. ''

If you are right in saying that the church wants less actual contact with God in some cases. It is so they can more tightly control people. A reckoning of the churches is coming soon and already underway. Pray that they have soft and repentant hearts so the judgement is repentance rather than harsher things.

Brett, Engineer of Musclebeasts,

Are you replying to yourself??? You can edit. You don't have to create a new post.

Halley, Lady of the Night of the craft table,

More faith less actual contact with god himself thats what the church wants. Have faith they said , you will be saved they said. Spirituality doesnt work that way